I wish to have a discussion about how physical surveillance affects you in your day-to-day life; apart from Flock and (Ring) doorbell cameras (which I believe are pretty established at this point). This in context with your country of residence, and whether in a rural or densely populated area (as (“smart”) cities typically “progress” at a faster rate).
I live in a medium-sized village, in a low-density area of The Netherlands. I rarely travel long distances and visit cities, but despite that, I’m increasingly confronted with surveillance infrastructure. Maybe it’s because I know too much about it, and I no longer have the option to be unaware of it, but it eats at me on a daily basis.
Most notable is surveillance surrounding highways, especially: the increased density of radar sensors (which, on their own, might not reveal much about individuals; but could reveal one’s progression when paired to ALPR data, for instance), “focusflitsers” (a (mobile) array of thermal-imaging cameras: peering through a vehicle’s windshield, supposedly patrolling phone-usage during driving, but also featuring an ALPR (which also captures the driver, besides the license plate of course), and may also be used to record speed-indications (to identify “verkeershufters”: roughly translating to “traffic jerks”)), dedicated (mobile or stationary) ALPR cameras (supposedly only for detecting warranted vehicles or “hits”: unless published in the police’s “cameraplan”), “trajectcontroles” (average speed monitoring: essentially two sets of ALPRs, calculating the average time between readings), and (now) digital speed cameras (typically at intersections: instead of adapting road design…). But I’m glad I trust my government to only store “hits” and those in violation… /s
Other than that, I’ve spotted ALPRs (alongside an increasing number of PTZ cameras) at gas stations and above infrastructure (like bridges), but also built within boom gates before parking areas or recycling centers (behind a little square of darkened glass: in the base of the gate); and in, and surrounding retail areas (especially supermarkets) the number of cameras have risen (including the cameras at the self-checkout lanes: staring customers straight in the face; supposedly to discourage theft, but considering the “pay by face” concept, I fear it’s in preparation thereof). Buses, structurally driving through my street, also have (exterior) camera side-mirrors, and therefore frequently capture me. And finally the eyesore that is public-facing home-surveillance systems (despite legally not allowed to, but of course not actively being enforced: as the government would shoot itself in the foot if it did).
That was my little rant, please feel free to leave yours below in the comments; I’m somewhat desperate to hear it. I’m especially interested in stories from Denmark: as even my mom (despite of the “I’ve got nothing to hide” type) noticed “average speed monitoring” cameras all throughout the country, and “speed cameras” being at the entrance of villages (which I believe you aren’t allowed to be notified about in navigation programs: which is also insane to me), when she was there on a holiday. Please be very critical of every camera you’re confronted with, including those that appear to have been there for your entire life. It’s safe to assume every camera (including old “analog” cameras: through encoders) feed back into modern, digital surveillance platforms: which allow the footage to be actively monitored by AI (often to potentially trigger an alert, which an operator could respond to), possibly retained for an extended period of time (especially when considered evidence, it may be stored long-term: on a centralized server and/or cloud storage), and is shared effortlessly over the internet (instead of requiring physical transfer).
I’m a politically active anarchist (Boston US). The extent of my political activities is giving food to people, but the cameras have completely changed my threat model.
Under current directives, the FBI considers me a domestic terrorist and violent extremist because I am trans and against fascism (not because of my actions – I am not violent). Legally they can’t just randomly arrest me because of our right to free speech, but they can arrest me for something entirely unrelated and punish me disproportionally, so the cameras have changed the way I act in the city and online. I am now much more cautious about everything; I worry about simply putting a “scam” sticker over somebody else’s sticker promoting a scam. I am constantly aware of law enforcement around me. I scan my surroundings regularly to make an updated escape plan. I notice every person walking down the street I’m on. I carry a knife and pepper spray. I regularly ask myself what would happen if a cop pulled me over / stopped me at this moment, and am well aware of the varying rights and legal obligations in those situations.
It’s not possible to avoid the cameras when driving, so I can’t just change my route. I have to simply accept the fact that they know my routine and location and they know what I do day-to-day. I am very careful about what I say both online and in person so as to not appear like I might ever do anything beyond giving food to people and broadly complaining.
And the worst part is that I’m just a 19 year old who has big ideas but won’t do any harm. I just so happen to be several minorities, so the stakes are much higher
I know you wrote “apart from Ring” but I literally can’t smoke a J anywhere in my yard (front, back, or sides) without being in view of at least one of them from various neighbors. It’s oppressing. Not that they ever complained; it just makes it harder to relax. Literally I move a little and see red dots popping up.
Our neighbors had a Ring doorbell at one point, but the thing was always speaking with a voice, which constantly tried prompting the user to perform some action, so I’m quite positive it has never functioned properly. But if it did, I’d probably ask them politely to pan it differently (they have those wedges you can mount between it and the wall: changing the angle); but thankfully my neighbors have already changed it back to a regular one.
i started going to the park because of this.
Then I’d been stressing out about cops instead, because it’s legal here but not in public.
same here, so i don’t stay in any one place long enough for the police to be called in to get me.
i start lighting up as i near the park and i take the last puffs as i’m walking away.
I’m somewhere in the U.S. Our local politicians suck. I want to relocate. I supported someone last election cycle who was opposed to flock cameras, but they’ve completely fallen in lockstep with the established authoritarians since taking office. So I have been trying to avoid flock cameras on my route to work. But every time I find a minor detour, a new camera pops up. And even then, many of those detours are through residential neighborhoods, where every third person
is a collaboratorhas a ring camera. My current route has me circling around the entire town before slipping back in on the other side. My commute has gone from ~20 minutes to ~40 minutes each way, which is just barely within my tolerance before I throw in the towel. There are several businesses I won’t even go to anymore, either because every possible route is surveilled, or because the business owners actively work against my interests (e.g. Whole Foods), which is actually good, since I find myself rabidly supporting local businesses, just as I should have been doing all along.A lot of ALPRs are well hidden here, and not uniformly recognizable (other than: being a fixed box-type camera, angled to capture the license plate (mostly the front: as to be able to capture the driver as well), and typically having an array of IR LEDs in or around the camera-body: lighting up the license plate). But as of recently, the national police has installed a mobile ALPR unit on my return-trip, and I’ve found myself in somewhat a similar situation to yours. Thankfully, they aren’t typically placed within residential areas (at least not outside of cities, which often do have pedestrianized areas or environmental zones, only permitted vehicles are allowed to enter); but I’m sure they’ll find a creative excuse for it in the near future.
I’ve tried taking a detour once, but noticed cameras above a bridge, that tick most of the boxes for being an ALPR, so it seemed to have proved fruitless (despite requiring me to pass through pedestrianized areas: slowing me down significantly). Cameras appear to be placed with care, seemingly using waterways as perimeters: forcing vehicles to drive over a bridge, underneath an aqueduct, or through a tunnel. Besides the initially mentioned ALPRs at gas stations (as you’re forced to fuel up periodically), and parking areas or other endpoints (as you’re forced to park your vehicle somewhere). It’s honestly quite clever, especially when you can potentially narrow down activity using consumer-grade or business surveillance systems.
A lot of ALPRs are well hidden here
I suppose it defeats the purpose but this in itself should be illegal. If these cameras exist they should be required to be clearly signposted. People should have the right to know exactly if/where/how they’re being recorded. Not just “maybe there’s a camera here, maybe we’re recording you, maybe we’re capturing and recording your face, who knows”
I’m in the Netherlands right now. You may have a different perspective if you’re a car owner, but I really noticed I’m not being spied on as much. I believe it’s not really allowed for a private person to film a public street neither, and I simply don’t see any cameras.
I live in Prague. When I go for a walk there, there’s hundreds of cameras following me. It’s like every home has at least one camera and they’re not just filming their own property. It feels uncomfortable: you never know who’s watching or what’s done with the footage.
Surveillance surrounding car infrastructure is the most notable currently, but every larger public transportation hub has cameras all over too, together with on-board cameras in pubic transit vehicles, which are monitored in real time (despite moving around constantly). Perhaps you could give me a generalized description of your whereabouts and your activity, so I have a little bit more context on your surroundings. And yes, like I mentioned, it’s technically not allowed to have private cameras facing the public space, but without enforcement, you might as well not have it (or actually incentivizes people to hide them).
I’m quite interested in your experience in Prague, and would love to hear more about it. From your description it seems cameras in Prague are very apparent, which I consider to be a good thing. Whereas in The Netherlands surveillance systems are often installed to be unobtrusive; including those installed by authorities or businesses (which are typically recording the store’s entrance; and as a “by-product” the public space; and dome-style cameras are increasingly placed in public retail areas too: mounted (typically in groups) on poles, or to exterior of buildings).
In Prague the line between private and public space seems blurred. Like, a footpath ends and the only way to continue is to walk over what appears to belong to a private business, of course full of cameras all over. I’m a bit further from the center, with a lot of rich people in big homes. They all have huge fences and walls around their gardens, often with cameras on top, so they can still spy on what happens outside their walls. Sometimes they’re so high up, you could think they want to know what happens in the entire street. Prague is one of the safest cities ever, so I really wonder how much of this is security and how much is curiosity. I mean, if you want to catch a burglar, you hang the camera down low so you can see their face.
Of course the city has traffic cameras and there’s police surveillance cameras in the center too, but at least you know what they’re for. The fact that any random person or business can film you is more worrying imo.
In NL, I’m staying in the North. I walk a lot. Instead of cameras, there are many curious people staring out of their windows :)
I live in a dense enough area that you can’t throw a stone without hitting a school. seriously if you are at a school there is likely a school of some kind within a mile. Im at the edge of the major density so it does slow down going in the one direction. Oh also red light cameras are like at every light which is most intersections.
So there are some sort of speed cameras near schools, instead of changing road design, as to reduce speed naturally? The same goes for the red light cameras though, which I like you’re mentioning; they aren’t very common where I typically go, but I’ve seen them at places. Could you tell me in what country this is in?
usual suspect. the us.
That was my little rant, please feel free to leave yours below in the comments; I’m somewhat desperate to hear it.
I’m in the US. Lots here is commercial. Cameras are all over in most stores. Everything bigger than mom & pop tier and even some of those. Long ago, that was kind of okay. They were closed circuit. The video went to a literal video tape to be overwritten in 1-3 days. Now? It’s unavoidable mass surveilance coupled to AI and cloud based analytics. The bigger chains run sophisticated facial recognition and AI behavior analysis.
Is that just for anti-theft? Oh no! These systems are used to analyze customer behavior. “Modern vision technologies are turning store video footage into powerful marketing insights”. Are you staring at a product, or looking away? Did you stop and pause near a display? Do you appear interested, or distracted? Did you pick up a product and return it to the shelf? Or place it in your cart? Did you read the label first? What route did you take through the store? These are all literally what modern video customer analytics do.
“This is where modern video analytics shines: it allows stores to map the entire in-store customer journey, from the moment someone enters to the moment they make a purchase (or leave without one). More advanced models add pose estimation, which looks at body posture and hand movement.”
It’s like somebody told Orwell 1984 was MUCH too mild.
Oh, did you want to opt out? Sure! You can. All you got to do is stop eating food!
but it eats at me on a daily basis.
Totally with you, sir, ma’am or other. I try to be an upstanding person. I try to help those around me. To be kind to others. To support my community and my neighbors. I just don’t want to live in a fucking constantly monitored world without a lick of privacy left. Where every action I have ever taken is recorded, analyzed, used against me. I believe this erodes democratic societies. These data streams are inevitably abused by tyranical ones. It’s a cancer on our societies. It harms all of us.
Same over here, with local chains increasingly forced to shut their doors (primarily as a result of the COVID pandemic, and the various developments ever since). And I completely agree, for most people it’s physically an unnoticeable change, but the change from: local, short-term, manual systems, to digitally transferable, long term, and automated ones, makes all the difference.
I’m quite confident most large chains were somewhat forced to have modern, GDPR-compliant systems in place (like Genetec for instance): undoubtedly allowing for integration of such analytics tools. And apart from that, they’ve had trackers in their carts (hidden in the locking-chain, or wheel-break assemblies) for as long as I can remember, and likely track user-location through app-use, or dedicated scanners too (for scanning products before you place them inside your cart); so I’m quite positive they utilize surveillance systems for that too.
Oh, did you want to opt out? Sure! You can. All you got to do is stop eating food!
I would just love to see those, that claim to be human, which are knowingly in support of these systems, try to justify the ethical ramifications in that statement alone. Which is “just” restricted to grocery shopping for now, but if the current trend continues, you’ll effectively become a prisoner to your own home. And quite rapidly so, if Europol’s ambitions to protect citizens from hypothetical adversary (kamikaze) drones, by use of drone swarms, atmospheric satellites and microphone meshes, becomes reality.
It’s an insane timeline we’re living in, and it’s so easy to give up all faith; but perhaps that is exactly what they want us to do. For us to feel powerless, and believing we are incapable of making a relevant change. I share the same ambitions as you, and I believe most human beings do naturally; but it’s becoming increasingly difficult when you have principles to stick by. I’ve already experienced this by transitioning away from big-tech platforms, and I would absolutely hate this translating into the physical world.
if the current trend continues, you’ll effectively become a prisoner to your own home
Same feeling for me. It’s oppressive AF. It feels inescapable, relentlessly expanding. I don’t want to be a hermit! If it’s not a store, it’s a rando who takes a selfie in a restaurant and you’re at the next table. Or at any kind of public event. Photo u/l’ed to their IG or FB. Then machine learning models spool up to wring out every possible inference. Those inferences can reveal so much more than most ppl understand.
Your categorization is on the money, “unnoticeable change”. It is the same on the tip top surface between their parents film camera photos, and their IG. But below that is a whole new world of capability.
Culture changes. Laws change. Tech possibilities change. But data is forever! We can never know how today’s data may be abused tomorrow, by who, and against who. We’re seeing data of people’s past lives weaponized against ppl, more and more often.
It also has psychologic effects. People are less willing to change their personal views, when their whole past is discoverable. That leads to more polarized societies over time.
Yeah, they might as well start wearing body-cams… oh wait, we have that, it’s called a “smart” pin; and police are also increasingly using smartphones to record and upload evidence; quirky, isn’t it? The difference is night and day, especially between analog and modern smartphones: always within reach, effectively without storage limitation, and uploaded within a moment’s notice (boldly assuming the device’s OS, or apps with media access don’t analyze device contents, without the user’s explicit consent).
There’s technically no reason to be selective with moments being captured, and as a result nearly any moment classifies. Often without realizing a recording is a memory cue at best, and poorly captures the emotion you felt in the moment; or rather didn’t, as you were too preoccupied viewing it through a lens. I simply can’t wait until spy… I mean “smart” glasses become mainstream; and people literally experience most of their lives through a lens.
It sometimes surprises me how easily people adopted the concept, of maintaining an aptly named “profile” on one’s self, and are continuing to refine the profile, over a span of decades at this point; and seemingly have no issues with this profile, directly relating to them as a person. I’m sure most algorithms or AI “assistants”, know their users better than they know themselves, and is actively being exploited for advertising, political campaigning, and trapping users in echo chambers; it’s really no wonder society is as polarized: it seems to be by design.
Interesting thing here… Walmart has moved to all-digital pricing labels in their aisles. They also use behavioural monitoring video. You can see where THAT is going.
The car thing bothers me. I have purposely chose an old non smart car, but given I have a license plate i am still monitored. I am seeing a lot just randomly on roadsides and I live kinda regional.
As for out in public, I have been considering a really light mouth mask, glasses and a hat. I thought I was crazy…I really thought i was turning into an irrational paranoid person.
Can’t shop online as I cant stand online shopping and algorithms anymore, plus i prefer to shop local.
Its like a trap.
Same, despite all the (financial) incentives to get me to drive electric (including self-induced gasoline price-hiking). Do you mind expanding on what it is you’re seeing at roadsides, and in what country this takes place?
As for out in public, I have been considering a really light mouth mask, glasses and a hat. I thought I was crazy…I really thought i was turning into an irrational paranoid person.
I’ve also been there, and honestly there might be something to it, but I feel like automated systems might ironically keep a closer eye, on those wearing: a mouth mask (thanks to training-data from the COVID pandemic), glasses, and a hat. And I have no answer to it when pay-by-face (which self-checkout registers here could already do technically) becomes widely adopted. For now I completely avoid said registers (despite the manned ones also having a camera nearby, but at least not ~50cm from my face); but entries to (public) transit terminals also increasingly have cameras at facial height (which might also be in preparation of pay-by-face). So in the not so distant future, your face may be captured with every transaction (whether you use the system or not: as the camera remains in place).
It seems like concepts from e-commerce are ported to the physical world: primarily the customer tracking and digital payments. And perhaps the entire web has been a simulation, in preparation for the digitization of the physical world. It’s quite difficult to make a payment anonymously online: customer details may be shared across web shops (to check for irregularities: potentially raising a red flag, prompting the customer to supply more details), and orders are increasingly fulfilled by centralized fulfillment centers (which take the details from “independent” shops, and know exactly what goes in your box, because they store and package the products). So perhaps we should “enjoy” physical shopping while we can, because online shopping seems to be the basis for future physical shopping (that is if shops don’t go delivery or pick-up only: similar to during the COVID pandemic; which goes for some IKEAs are around here).
Make sure to cover the T of the bridge of your nose and the eyebrow ridge, and your ears
All sorts of new tower cameras popping up rapidly in my area. They look errily similar to a phone tower but much smaller. Single turret style rotational camera on top of a black tower.
Interesting, in what country is this? And is it in specific areas (like retail for example), or implemented more broadly?
I will take a photo for people to see. I think we need to know how to scrub exif data and do the best we can.
In retail locations yes, along highways, even bridges. I will take the photo and repost. So we can identify. United States.
Your title has it a little bit backwards. It doesn’t affect you, until it does. That’s why privacy is so difficult. People are naturally reactive. Their phone number gets leaked, they get spam calls, they suddenly care who has their phone number.
But a license plate capture? There is no immediate affect. If the driver was given a monetary charge for every single license plate capture, there would be rioting in the streets and so many laws would be written and repealed… but there isn’t. So people don’t care because it doesn’t affect them.
I tried explaining this to my parents, and they got the concept in general, but again they are naturally reactive in their habits. They won’t discuss banking details in front of their Alexa microphone, but will happily install a driving tracker in their car at the behest of their insurance agent. When their insurance went up because of excess braking (they have those BS short yellow lights to help the red-light cameras) then suddenly they cared that they were being tracked. The surveillance didn’t affect them, until it did.
It’s so easy for people to just not think about it, or assume it won’t happen to them, because that’s the easiest method to cope with the shrinking amount of privacy we get.
I know of no way to champion privacy. No call to arms about an offense to rally behind. It’s a slow erosion that people don’t immediately notice, until it finally affects them.
The authorities don’t have to (ab)use the technology against me, in order for me to be affected by it: in the presence of camera surveillance it makes me uneasy, and thus affects me. But I agree the average person is sadly, but somewhat blissfully, unaware of modern technology eroding their rights, and only start to care when they’re in the midst of it.
If the driver was given a monetary charge for every single license plate capture, there would be rioting in the streets
I wish they were, or at least aware, of the fact that the steep increase in parking tickets, is also due to ALPR technology (at the entry of lots, or mounted to enforcement vehicles), or when they accidentally enter a pedestrian area, enforced by ALPR cameras; but the sad reality is that they don’t; and the same goes for trackers (built into modern vehicles), or some “free” navigation app they’ve installed on their smartphone (listing cheap gas stations for instance, or ironically seeks to avoid speeding tickets…). Money is indeed always the incentive, but it’s only effective if people are unaware, or ignorant enough to not be able to, or willing to, look beyond the short-term monetary gain.
Well said.
I once heard someone sum it up like,
“Everyone has something to hide. You just don’t know what that is, until it’s too late.”
I had to stop paying attention to physical surveillance because at one point I was unable to normally function without constant anxiety. The cameras are terrifying and so are cashless-only payments for public transport, parking, highways.
I like how the British have a tradition of destroying cameras in public spaces, but I’m too much of a coward to do the same where I live.
I wish I could, but I don’t think I’m able to now. I’ve already been through a time of pessimism, but have realized this might be exactly what they’re after: unawareness (which is the overarching majority) or ignorance (despite being aware); while exactly now is the time to act. The Dutch government typically bases related legislation on meaningless, exacerbated statistics from pseudo-studies: financed by parties having a clear conflict of interest (an insurance company’s study, on people’s use of smartphones in cars, being a prime example). I believe there need to be more, localized communities, which take care to expose such government inconsistencies: as to rob them of their excuses. Destruction of “tax payer property” will only worsen things: additional cameras might be propped up to identify the suspects, and the government is able to associate privacy-advocacy with vandalism.
