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There are so many speech restrictions and humans rights violations in China that scare the hell out of me
I hear an earful about how horrible and repressive the Chinese state government is to its citizens from the outside, largely by national media talking heads and Big Data surveillance company flaks. Meanwhile, the consequences of talking shit on the Chinese internet - account suspension/deactivation, getting in trouble with your employer/school possibly with the threat of firing/expulsion, periodic investigation by state police for threats of violence, possible restrictions on business/travel because you’ve been added to a “watch list”, potential for arrest on some bullshit charge - seem to be all the same kinds of consequences periodically doled out to western citizens.
I’m told Americans have “free speech”. But then the Supreme Court lays so many caveats down that even a silly toothless joke is strictly prohibited under US laws. I’m told Chinese officials are brutal and draconian and mean-spirited, but they don’t have anything approaching our prison population. I haven’t seen evidence of any kind of mob-rule social media gang dedicated to doxing Chinese dissidents, either. So they manage to stay ahead of Canary Mission and Project Veritas in that regard.
I hope one day there is more free speech for people in China who deserve to be able to say what they want.
I want to know what that’s supposed to look like in practice. Where can I find the Free Speech that the Evil Foreign Country is supposed to one day get?
Because if the dream is an American style system of free expression… What are we pinning for, really? Chinese Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson? Uyghurs given the Palestine Action treatment? An independent Taiwan that enjoys all the diplomatic kindness we afford to our neighbors down in Haiti and Cuba?
Everyone is agreeing with your bashing of the US, which is fine, I agree with that part.
But just because the United States is creating/ allowing internment camps and death camps doesn’t mean it’s okay for the Chinese to do it to the Uygurs. Just because the US is stupidly throwing our military weight around doesn’t make it okay for China to do it, especially not to one of the highest rated democracies in the world.
Is your premise that suppression of minorities and military adventurism is par for the course so there’s no use criticizing it?
But just because the United States is creating/ allowing internment camps and death camps doesn’t mean it’s okay for the Chinese to do it to the Uygurs
China is building schools and factors in Xinjiang, extending their massive rail network into the country, developing new high density urban centers, and - as a consequence - importing a great deal of the neighboring territory language, culture, and economic practices.
The US is defunding education across the Southwest, gutting low-cost public transit, criminalizing the development of property in migrant neighborhoods, and conducting mass arrests of legal residents based on the social media posts of grifters and fanatics.
How are these two policies equivalent?
Is your premise that suppression of minorities and military adventurism is par for the course so there’s no use criticizing it?
On what planet is policing your own sovereign territory against domestic insurgency “military adventurism”?
I’m arguing against the premise of making the argument based on equating the two countries. The circumstances/ policies don’t have to be different or the same to evaluate them.
Also, your assertion of what the Chinese government is doing in Xinjiang might well be true, but what people/ the West take issue with is the rounding up of dissidents, sending them to reeducation camps, and forcibly sterilizing some of them.
On what planet is policing your own sovereign >territory against domestic insurgency “military >adventurism”?
As far as the Chinese government goes, this part refers to taking Taiwan by force. Literally only the Chinese government would refer to Taiwan as their ‘sovereign territory’.
I’m discussing the actual material facts in these two countries.
I’m listening to someone point to LBJ’s Great Society and calling it a Holocaust. You sound like one of those homeschool libertarians, screaming about how truancy laws are unconstitutional.
what people/ the West take issue with is the rounding up of dissidents, sending them to reeducation camps, and forcibly sterilizing some of them
Not when their friends in The Philippines or Israel are doing it. Not when they’re doing it to refugees in US prisons or UK detention camps.
What Westerners object to isn’t Chinese policing. It’s Chinese sovereignty, Chinese technology, and Chinese trade they’re freaked out about.
As far as the Chinese government goes, this part refers to taking Taiwan by force.
What blockade are they running against Cuba Taiwan? How many military bases are they squatting on in defiance of the national government? How many times have they attempted to assassinate a CubanVenezuelanIranianAfghani Taiwanese head of state?
How many homes have they bulldozed? How many citizens have they butchered? How many fishing boats have double-tapped?
Your entire response is just Whataboutism. You’re still simping for the man, just the Chinese man instead of the American one.
Not when their friends in The Philippines or Israel are doing it.
In truth I don’t know anything about the government in the Philippines right now; if they are running camps then there is a shameful lack of media coverage about it.
But vastly more people in the US are horrified by the plight of the Palestinians than that of the Uyghurs, primarily because they feel at least indirectly responsible for it.
But the people calling out the mistreatment of the Uyghurs aren’t silent about the Palestinians.
As far as the Chinese posture towards Taiwan, we have intelligence and data documenting their military buildup for at least a decade. They are building amphibious assault ships (https://youtu.be/DtrGMsGsZiU) and verbally making public statements about reunification.
I don’t think we should expect China to do a bunch of random piddle-farting around with arbitrary bombing like US policy under Trump. Mainly because that is not at all what their consolidation of authority in Hong Kong looked like, but also because they’re not fucking dumbasses like Trump.
Bias is situational; look at AP’s reporting of the Israel-Palestine conflict for an example of their obscene bias towards western interests. Bias should be assessed on a per-claim basis to avoid logical fallacies like ad hominem.
When I Google search for bias in AP’s coverage of Israel-Palestine, all of the sites I encounter claim they have highlighted harm to the Palestinians more than threats to the Israelis. I feel like this isn’t what you’re talking about though? This level of bias (highlighting the concerns of one side over another) is still substantially less egregious than what you are accusing them of: just getting facts blatantly wrong/ opposite of the truth in Xinjiang.
Look, without speaking Mandarin, traveling to Xinjiang, and having access to all the sites in question, I can’t really know what’s happening there. The best any outsiders can do is try to study through the sources available and pick out who we trust.
I trust the AP. As an organization, they trade on their reputation for quality and unbiased coverage. When I read pieces by them of extremely controversial events in the US, they give only facts. I am absolutely going to trust them more then an unsigned document, hosted by a site I don’t know, that largely engages in character assassination of names I don’t even recognize.
But just because the United States is creating/ allowing internment camps and death camps doesn’t mean it’s okay for the Chinese to do it to the Uygurs
But that’s literally made up by the Zionist media apparatus though? Like, you’re comparing actually recorded shootings of civilians by the police on the street (USA) with hearsay stories made up by Zionist media.
if you look towards northern Europe instead of the US
The UK has some of the most repressive speech laws on Earth. Germany isn’t far behind. Given the groundswell of fascist tendency across the Scandinavian bloc, I would not bank on them serving as a model much longer. An uptick in Muslim immigration has kicked off a tidal wave of Islamophobia, which now dominates their domestic politics.
This is exactly right. ‘Free speech’ in the US is about to be all but eliminated in a couple of short years. They are starting with the BS age confirmation every State is slowly adding right after California to operating systems. Just watch how fast that turns into China.
I hear an earful about how horrible and repressive the Chinese state government is to its citizens from the outside, largely by national media talking heads and Big Data surveillance company flaks. Meanwhile, the consequences of talking shit on the Chinese internet - account suspension/deactivation, getting in trouble with your employer/school possibly with the threat of firing/expulsion, periodic investigation by state police for threats of violence, possible restrictions on business/travel because you’ve been added to a “watch list”, potential for arrest on some bullshit charge - seem to be all the same kinds of consequences periodically doled out to western citizens.
I’m told Americans have “free speech”. But then the Supreme Court lays so many caveats down that even a silly toothless joke is strictly prohibited under US laws. I’m told Chinese officials are brutal and draconian and mean-spirited, but they don’t have anything approaching our prison population. I haven’t seen evidence of any kind of mob-rule social media gang dedicated to doxing Chinese dissidents, either. So they manage to stay ahead of Canary Mission and Project Veritas in that regard.
I want to know what that’s supposed to look like in practice. Where can I find the Free Speech that the Evil Foreign Country is supposed to one day get?
Because if the dream is an American style system of free expression… What are we pinning for, really? Chinese Alex Jones and Tucker Carlson? Uyghurs given the Palestine Action treatment? An independent Taiwan that enjoys all the diplomatic kindness we afford to our neighbors down in Haiti and Cuba?
What are we even asking for?
Your logic is shit.
Everyone is agreeing with your bashing of the US, which is fine, I agree with that part.
But just because the United States is creating/ allowing internment camps and death camps doesn’t mean it’s okay for the Chinese to do it to the Uygurs. Just because the US is stupidly throwing our military weight around doesn’t make it okay for China to do it, especially not to one of the highest rated democracies in the world.
Is your premise that suppression of minorities and military adventurism is par for the course so there’s no use criticizing it?
China is building schools and factors in Xinjiang, extending their massive rail network into the country, developing new high density urban centers, and - as a consequence - importing a great deal of the neighboring territory language, culture, and economic practices.
The US is defunding education across the Southwest, gutting low-cost public transit, criminalizing the development of property in migrant neighborhoods, and conducting mass arrests of legal residents based on the social media posts of grifters and fanatics.
How are these two policies equivalent?
On what planet is policing your own sovereign territory against domestic insurgency “military adventurism”?
I’m arguing against the premise of making the argument based on equating the two countries. The circumstances/ policies don’t have to be different or the same to evaluate them.
Also, your assertion of what the Chinese government is doing in Xinjiang might well be true, but what people/ the West take issue with is the rounding up of dissidents, sending them to reeducation camps, and forcibly sterilizing some of them.
As far as the Chinese government goes, this part refers to taking Taiwan by force. Literally only the Chinese government would refer to Taiwan as their ‘sovereign territory’.
I’m discussing the actual material facts in these two countries.
I’m listening to someone point to LBJ’s Great Society and calling it a Holocaust. You sound like one of those homeschool libertarians, screaming about how truancy laws are unconstitutional.
Not when their friends in The Philippines or Israel are doing it. Not when they’re doing it to refugees in US prisons or UK detention camps.
What Westerners object to isn’t Chinese policing. It’s Chinese sovereignty, Chinese technology, and Chinese trade they’re freaked out about.
What blockade are they running against
CubaTaiwan? How many military bases are they squatting on in defiance of the national government? How many times have they attempted to assassinate aCubanVenezuelanIranianAfghaniTaiwanese head of state?How many homes have they bulldozed? How many citizens have they butchered? How many fishing boats have double-tapped?
Your entire response is just Whataboutism. You’re still simping for the man, just the Chinese man instead of the American one.
In truth I don’t know anything about the government in the Philippines right now; if they are running camps then there is a shameful lack of media coverage about it.
But vastly more people in the US are horrified by the plight of the Palestinians than that of the Uyghurs, primarily because they feel at least indirectly responsible for it. But the people calling out the mistreatment of the Uyghurs aren’t silent about the Palestinians.
As far as the Chinese posture towards Taiwan, we have intelligence and data documenting their military buildup for at least a decade. They are building amphibious assault ships (https://youtu.be/DtrGMsGsZiU) and verbally making public statements about reunification.
I don’t think we should expect China to do a bunch of random piddle-farting around with arbitrary bombing like US policy under Trump. Mainly because that is not at all what their consolidation of authority in Hong Kong looked like, but also because they’re not fucking dumbasses like Trump.
You’re accusing China of invading Taiwan, a thing it categorically hasn’t done.
I think planning and posturing for their attack on Taiwan can still be counted as military adventurism.
But killing tens of thousands of people is Whataboutism?
Liberalism in a nutshell.
Can you respond to this comment (https://reddthat.com/comment/26414066)? That was the original thread and I’m interested in your response.
The AP is about as unbiased as you can get: https://apnews.com/article/269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764C
And Lemmy is also full of propaganda. That commenter didn’t even cite a source.
Bias is situational; look at AP’s reporting of the Israel-Palestine conflict for an example of their obscene bias towards western interests. Bias should be assessed on a per-claim basis to avoid logical fallacies like ad hominem.
Here’s a good, neutral take on the unreliability of Uyghur related reporting in sources like the AP: https://www.aph.gov.au/DocumentStore.ashx?id=4767d3ce-8490-464f-8508-d8f3b7878808&subId=703775
When I Google search for bias in AP’s coverage of Israel-Palestine, all of the sites I encounter claim they have highlighted harm to the Palestinians more than threats to the Israelis. I feel like this isn’t what you’re talking about though? This level of bias (highlighting the concerns of one side over another) is still substantially less egregious than what you are accusing them of: just getting facts blatantly wrong/ opposite of the truth in Xinjiang.
Look, without speaking Mandarin, traveling to Xinjiang, and having access to all the sites in question, I can’t really know what’s happening there. The best any outsiders can do is try to study through the sources available and pick out who we trust.
I trust the AP. As an organization, they trade on their reputation for quality and unbiased coverage. When I read pieces by them of extremely controversial events in the US, they give only facts. I am absolutely going to trust them more then an unsigned document, hosted by a site I don’t know, that largely engages in character assassination of names I don’t even recognize.
But that’s literally made up by the Zionist media apparatus though? Like, you’re comparing actually recorded shootings of civilians by the police on the street (USA) with hearsay stories made up by Zionist media.
I think if you look towards northern Europe instead of the US you’ll find better references and goals.
The UK has some of the most repressive speech laws on Earth. Germany isn’t far behind. Given the groundswell of fascist tendency across the Scandinavian bloc, I would not bank on them serving as a model much longer. An uptick in Muslim immigration has kicked off a tidal wave of Islamophobia, which now dominates their domestic politics.
This is exactly right. ‘Free speech’ in the US is about to be all but eliminated in a couple of short years. They are starting with the BS age confirmation every State is slowly adding right after California to operating systems. Just watch how fast that turns into China.
12h ago: Trump says it’s treasonous to say the US isn’t winning the war in Iran
Now that you mention it I definitely want Chinese tucker Carlson and Alex jones